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alandyck

Age Question for Nude Model

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I appologize for posting this on two forums but I didn't get much response on the other. Here is my situation: I shot a model who is 20 years old. We did some implied and nude shots. Can I sell her images that I took this week when she is 21?

 

She is legal age in Oregon. But I understand different states and countries have different laws on nudity.

 

It would be helpful if a reviewer could answer this question. She is 21 in October.

 

Thanks

 

Alan

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I don't know myself, but ask Bobby Deal (Photoshow). He has a lot of experience with models and I'm betting he knows. Beckya will know too. I'm sure others do too, but I know for sure these two know the answer.

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It sounds like you are asking if you can upload and sell them here on Shutterstock if she is 20. If that is the case according to the FAQ page you cannot. She needs to be 21 and an ID showing her age as such needs to be uploaded as well. Here is the link to the answer in the FAQ page.

 

http://submit.shutterstock.com/faq.mhtml#Does%20Shutterstock%20accept%20nudes?

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No the question I am asking is since I shot the images when she is 20 can I wait until after her birthday and sell them when she is 21? Or does the fact that she is 20 now disqualify the images even after she turns 21?

 

If she were an underage minor under 18 I would be in trouble in the state of Oregon. But she is legal age for nude work in Oregon. But she is not of legal age in some states which is why shutterstock has the 21 year old age restriction. But I just don't know if I can sell them in six months when she is of proper age for the sale on this and other stock sites. I do understand the SS rules on releases and photo ID and have several images with proper releases. But this is the first one where I'm wondering if the images will have value in the future. Otherwise I will have to get a new release from her in six months.

 

If anyone knows a reviewer who you can ask to take a look at this question I appreciate it.

 

Alan

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Hello:

 

The set of 'implied' nudes you mentioned may be ok for you to submit, but it is impossible to determine, with 100% certainty, without actually 'seeing' the images in question.

 

Now, Shutterstock's policy on submissions of nude imagery is pretty clear:

 

We do not accept X-Rated pictures, but we may accept tasteful nudes. Any nude with definable features such as a face, scar, or tattoo must be accompanied by both a model release AND a valid ID stating that the model is 21 years of age or older.

 

Our full guidelines on submitting imagery is here: http://submit.shutterstock.com/guidelines.mhtml

 

Thank you,

 

Moderator

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The answer still is not addressing my question. I understand the age and ID requirement for nude photos. What I'm trying to determine is if the nude photos of someone age 20 can be sold then the model is 21.

 

I took the photos last week. The model turns 21 in six months. Can I use the model release with ID attached be sold when she turns 21?

 

What I don't know is if the age of the model has to be 21 at the time of the photo shoot or the photo sale.

 

Alan

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I think you better shouldn't ask this question and just keep the photo's untill she turns 21. No-one can see if the photo's were taken a few months before she reached the right age.

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Well that strategy has a major flaw. The model release has a date that the model signed it. The photo has metadata that shows the date it was taken and there is a copy of the models drivers license showing her date of birth.

 

The only solution would be to have the model resign a model release after she turns 21. But if you have ever had a person that you didn't get to sign a release and try to get them sign one later you know that it sometimes is very difficult. I still am waiting for a person that I photographed snowboarding for the last three months to sign and return a release.

 

So I want to know the SS policies so I can work within them not around them.

 

Alan

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The answer still is not addressing my question...Alan

alan, shutterstock's policy on submissions of nude imagery is pretty clear, see a clear answer below.

Hello:

 

The set of 'implied' nudes you mentioned may be ok for you to submit, but it is impossible to determine, with 100% certainty, without actually 'seeing' the images in question.

 

Now, Shutterstock's policy on submissions of nude imagery is pretty clear:

 

We do not accept X-Rated pictures, but we may accept tasteful nudes. Any nude with definable features such as a face, scar, or tattoo must be accompanied by both a model release AND a valid ID stating that the model is 21 years of age or older.

 

Our full guidelines on submitting imagery is here: http://submit.shutterstock.com/guidelines.mhtml

 

Thank you,

 

Moderator

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I think you better shouldn't ask this question and just keep the photo's untill she turns 21. No-one can see if the photo's were taken a few months before she reached the right age.

Well that strategy has a major flaw. The model release has a date that the model signed it. The photo has metadata that shows the date it was taken and there is a copy of the models drivers license showing her date of birth...
2nd major flaw, entrance to heaven would be denied if one where to commit fraud by making a false statement with deliberate intent to deceive.

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I don't think it's legal

 

If you take nudeshots of an 8 year old and wait until she's 21 it's still a naked 8 year old on the images...

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that's different, but you can't see the difference between a 20 year old and a 21 year old

 

just let her sign the modelrelease with a date after she turns 21

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" Any nude with definable features such as a face, scar, or tattoo must be accompanied by both a model release AND a valid ID stating that the model is 21 years of age or older."

 

Now this is the heart of the questions. Does she have to be 21 when I submit the photos or when the photos are taken?

 

Legally she is old enough to do a nude shoot in the state of Oregon. So it is much different than shooting a 15 year old and waiting until she was 21 to post. The 21 year old requirement is imposed, I assume, because some states (Alabama) have a requirement for the model to be 21. And I assume there may be countries that have a different age requirement.

 

I went ahead and submitted some of her implied nude photos yesterday. I think the majority of them will be accepted. Maybe one or two might not make the review filter but we will see.

 

Alan

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retake the pics. Don't submit the ones where she was 20. You might get into some legal issues.

 

There might be no difference in 20 to 21 but a few months, but the rules are set for a reason, and they cannot be stretched to fit different situations.

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"Reaper's Lament (poem)"

by: Gwenivere Stephan.

 

This thin gray line

Between right and wrong,

Between death and life,

Between close and far,

Between sound and silence,

Between familiar and strange,

Between dark and light,

Between you and me.

 

This thin gray line

I walk every day.

Collecting my souls.

Collecting your souls.

Who am I?

What am I doing?

Am I an angel?

A devil?

 

This thin gray line,

Wavering,

Dancing…

It is hard to see

My morals anymore.

I think once,

A long time ago,

I was normal

Like you,

Now I am this, myself…

And not myself…

 

You tremble to see me

And my pathway to heaven,

Or is it hell?

That place I send you,

To death?

New life?

I do not know.

I have not been there myself.

I simply walk along

this thin gray line.

 

Perhaps someday another one

Like me

(Like you?)

Will come and save me.

Take me

Away

From here,

To somewhere…

Where

I can breathe again

And think again

And know that what I am doing

Is good,

Or bad,

Or both?

Or neither?

 

This thin gray line,

For me,

(For you?)

For a reaper.

Reaper of souls.

Taker of life…

Keeper of life?

Death maiden.

Death’s trumpet.

Something…

(Someone?)

 

This thin gray line…

Yes.

This is my hell.

This is no where,

And everywhere,

And somewhere

(Or is it somewhere else?)

I do not know anymore.

Did I ever?

This is my hell.

This is my life,

My death?

This is who I am.

This is the broken soul,

The broken life,

The shattered one,

A shadow of my one-time self.

 

This thin gray line,

My prison,

Between everything,

Between nothing.

This is what I am trapped to!

As I push you along.

You move forward

(Or back?

Or both?

Or neither?)

I stay here

On my line.

Waiting…

Forever…

To die.

Please!

To die!

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that's different, but you can't see the difference between a 20 year old and a 21 year old

 

just let her sign the modelrelease with a date after she turns 21

 

If she was 20 when the images were taken, she's 20 in them. not 21. No matter when you date the release.

 

As a professional, I wouldn't recommend breaking the law just to have extra images in your portfolio, it could end up with you being in trouble and losing your entire portfolio.

 

The girl may seem cool now, but trust me, both Bobby and I have seen models change the way they feel a few years down the road when they become married have kids ect. ect. and no longer like the usage of an image. Never trust anyone fully. She could get upset and get you in big trouble if she sold you out for doctoring a release/written agreement (which is a felony in some areas)

 

Why don't you just re-shoot it now that she is of age?

The second shoot w/ a model always comes out better anyway. Your both more relaxed. :)

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I don't think it's legal

 

If you take nudeshots of an 8 year old and wait until she's 21 it's still a naked 8 year old on the images...

that's different, but you can't see the difference between a 20 year old and a 21 year old

 

just let her sign the modelrelease with a date after she turns 21

WHY ARE WE HAVING SUCH A HARD TIME WITH THIS?

 

I hope everyone sees the difference on the two above posts!

On the 8 yr old YOU CAN NOT FOOL THE REVIEWER and I know we all, are smart not to try.

 

On the 20 year old YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO FOOL THE REVIEWER and I certainly hope you won't try because that would be equal to making a false statement with deliberate intent to deceive [unless ss knows a work-around or exception].

 

In absence of an exception and since ss most likely will not be able to tell the difference if you do cross the gray line, dont expect anyone to hold your hand, you are all on your own.

 

The reality is in all likelihood you may not get ss in trouble with the law because really no one can tell the difference between 20 & 21 but you certainly risk being banned and I believe SS does not have to prove you wrong, SS can kick you out if it appears you crossed the line in reference to nude models, they don't have to quote any rules or laws.

 

Normally gray lines are not authoritatively explained, gray lines are meant not to be explained, they are there to avoid the loooooooooooooong and disagrebable multitude of explanations, like the "no man's land" an ambiguous area where guidelines and authority are not clear

 

I am not a lawyer, that is how I see it and not the views of Shutterstock, if you are unclear about any of this, please obtain independent legal advice.

 

Me, here...being wishful thinking... wish ss would shime in but I doubt it.

Sam.

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I don't think it's legal

 

If you take nudeshots of an 8 year old and wait until she's 21 it's still a naked 8 year old on the images...

that's different, but you can't see the difference between a 20 year old and a 21 year old

 

just let her sign the modelrelease with a date after she turns 21

WHY ARE WE HAVING SUCH A HARD TIME WITH THIS?

 

I hope everyone sees the difference on the two above posts!

On the 8 yr old YOU CAN NOT FOOL THE REVIEWER and I know we all, are smart not to try.

 

On the 20 year old YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO FOOL THE REVIEWER and I certainly hope you won't try because that would be equal to making a false statement with deliberate intent to deceive [unless ss knows a work-around or exception].

 

In absence of an exception and since ss most likely will not be able to tell the difference if you do cross the gray line, dont expect anyone to hold your hand, you are all on your own.

 

The reality is in all likelihood you may not get ss in trouble with the law because really no one can tell the difference between 20 & 21 but you certainly risk being banned and I believe SS does not have to prove you wrong, SS can kick you out if it appears you crossed the line in reference to nude models, they don't have to quote any rules or laws.

 

Normally gray lines are not authoritatively explained, gray lines are meant not to be explained, they are there to avoid the loooooooooooooong and disagrebable multitude of explanations, like the "no man's land" an ambiguous area where guidelines and authority are not clear

 

I am not a lawyer, that is how I see it and not the views of Shutterstock, if you are unclear about any of this, please obtain independent legal advice.

 

Me, here...being wishful thinking... wish ss would shime in but I doubt it.

Sam.

 

Great Advice. And as I said before, the model herself could get you in trouble down the road, if she changes her mind about the pictures.

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Yep...beckya's scenario is more grim than mine, so take your pick.

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Well I think some of you have confused a legal issue with a shutterstock policy. The girl is over 18. That is the legal age to shoot nudes. I have the release and her ID to show she is legal.

 

Shutterstock policy is that the model must be 21 and look 25. That is policy. There is a huge difference.

 

I have the legal right to use her images and sell them. No issue there. I have been shooting glamour for a while. I know how to stay legal. I'm new to SS so I have to determine the criteria that the reviewers are using. But basically I decided that I will submit her implied nude shots since there is no nudity. Then when she is 21 I will submit a few photos and see what the reviewers tell me. I will know the answer then. No harm no foul.

 

The answer is fuzzy to me because of the fact that she is a legal adult. But I'm sure there is a SS answer that I just have not heard yet.

 

All of you have valuable opinions but it is not what I had hoped as far as a definitive answer. I was sure that somewhere on the forum there was another glamour photographer who had delt with this issue before.

 

Anyway thanks for all of the comments.

 

Alan

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If you upload them here, your not only selling them in Oregon though. They will be sold all over. Which is why SS probobly has this policy, if the laws in other states are different.

 

I'm not very clear on the policy as I live in Vegas.

The forums are probably one of the worst places to come for a definitive answer. You may want to try support.

 

I shot nudes of a girl under 21 last week, (but am not uploading them to stock) I would take the time and find out more about the policies and laws before uploading the images.

 

I do know it's against the law to doctor a release. This is not only a shutterstock policy.

 

But then again, it's your butt. :)

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I'm not talking about doing any doctoring of any releases. I'm here on the forum to see if anyone has had any experience with this situation. And to find out exactly what SS policy is.

 

I am also aware that other states have different laws.

 

I don't consider having the model sign a new release doctoring the release. I have multiple models and I have them sign new releases many times when I shoot them. Mostly because my release changes and some sites want a release for each session.

 

I don't consider uploading an image to have a reviewer give me a determination as hanging my butt out. I have had plenty of photos rejected for one reason or another as I'm sure everyone here has. If they determine that the age of the model or the release does not cover them and me they will reject the image with an explanation.

 

But I'll give the support a try. I thought I was supposed to check here. But I'll ask the question to them through whatever source I can.

 

I'm not trying to beat the system...my question was to understand the system so I can work in it. That is my personality. I try to work within the system. But I want to understand the rules correctly.

 

Thanks everyone for your responses.

 

Alan

 

Alan

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No the question I am asking is since I shot the images when she is 20 can I wait until after her birthday and sell them when she is 21? Or does the fact that she is 20 now disqualify the images even after she turns 21?

 

If she were an underage minor under 18 I would be in trouble in the state of Oregon. But she is legal age for nude work in Oregon. But she is not of legal age in some states which is why shutterstock has the 21 year old age restriction. But I just don't know if I can sell them in six months when she is of proper age for the sale on this and other stock sites. I do understand the SS rules on releases and photo ID and have several images with proper releases. But this is the first one where I'm wondering if the images will have value in the future. Otherwise I will have to get a new release from her in six months...

Alan

 

Alan, Alan, Alan lets try again.

 

Alan it does not matter if the age at the time the tasteful nude picture was taken was at 8, 15, 20 or even 20 years and 11 and a ½ month, you can not submit it with a model release stating and/or implying she is 21 because in the photo she is still 20 and ss has drawn the line at 21 and that means 21.

 

If that was the case to allow an exception for you for a few month before 21 then there would have to be another line drawn stating how low the exception would go because pretty soon someone would want to submit 19½ and... so on... and so on.

 

Does Shutterstock accept nudes?

We do not accept X-Rated pictures, but we may accept tasteful nudes. Any nude with definable features such as a face, scar, or tattoo must be accompanied by both a model release AND a valid ID stating that the model is 21 years of age or older.

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No the question I am asking is since I shot the images when she is 20 can I wait until after her birthday and sell them when she is 21? Or does the fact that she is 20 now disqualify the images even after she turns 21?

 

If she were an underage minor under 18 I would be in trouble in the state of Oregon. But she is legal age for nude work in Oregon. But she is not of legal age in some states which is why shutterstock has the 21 year old age restriction. But I just don't know if I can sell them in six months when she is of proper age for the sale on this and other stock sites. I do understand the SS rules on releases and photo ID and have several images with proper releases. But this is the first one where I'm wondering if the images will have value in the future. Otherwise I will have to get a new release from her in six months...

Alan

 

Alan, Alan, Alan lets try again.

 

Alan it does not matter if the age at the time the tasteful nude picture was taken was at 8, 15, 20 or even 20 years and 11 and a ½ month, you can not submit it with a model release stating and/or implying she is 21 because in the photo she is still 20 and ss has drawn the line at 21 and that means 21.

 

If that was the case to allow an exception for you for a few month before 21 then there would have to be another line drawn stating how low the exception would go because pretty soon someone would want to submit 19½ and... so on... and so on.

 

Does Shutterstock accept nudes?

We do not accept X-Rated pictures, but we may accept tasteful nudes. Any nude with definable features such as a face, scar, or tattoo must be accompanied by both a model release AND a valid ID stating that the model is 21 years of age or older.

 

lol... I don't think we should bother. He only wants to hear the answer that suits him, as he has already submitted the images.

 

The answer should have been obvious.

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I don't consider having the model sign a new release doctoring the release.

 

"Doctoring a release" may have been a flippant way to describe it.

 

I should have said.. "knowingly providing false information"

 

 

BTW... Alan, You do have an extremely beautiful portfolio and gorgeous models, I wish you the best of luck & hope you take nothing I've said personally. I am just trying to give my personal opinion on the question you asked.

B.

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