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Illustrations from photos and auto tracing rejections


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On 1/4/2021 at 12:27 PM, Emily Veinglory said:

What will cause you trouble here is submitting something that immediately and intuitively looks like a photo, as an illustration, as that it will get rejected for being in the wrong category and/or cause frustration for customers looking for illustrations that look like illustrations.  If you can make a photo genuinely look like an illustration then there is no difference, but based on the two examples show so far I don't think you are doing that.  

Thanks, but I do submit these as illustrations, not photos.

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On 1/4/2021 at 7:46 AM, balajisrinivasan said:

If you can't draw (and have no inclination to learn), can't get shots in focus or get them right (and have no desire to correct) and aren't "artistically inclined", why are you selling pictures in the first place? Especially using long-winded digital tracing methods that are only going make your images look worse?

I mean, there are far better ways to make money or waste your time.

I assume that some modicum of talent is required in order to be able to learn to draw.  I have trouble with stick people.  If you are referring to learning how to use some kind of illustration software to create something from scratch, I again think that would require some artistic talent, and even if not, I do not see a lot of difference from doing that and with starting with a unique photo.

Dave

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On 1/5/2021 at 4:07 AM, Helen Hotson said:

Please share these hints.

Basically he said to submit the file as an illustration with a reference photo, which I already do, and try to indicate in the description that it is a Jpeg illustration.  I think the automated review process thinks it looks like an auto-traced vector file when it is a Jpeg illustration.  I have been including key words like "illustration" "digital painting" and "digital art".  He may had hinted that there is a way to submit a reference photo other than including it as a property release, but I cannot figure out how to do so (anyone here know?).

Dave

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On 1/4/2021 at 1:33 PM, Wilm Ihlenfeld said:

Dave,

perhaps you should think about your contributor name. If it is as you write, wouldn't a pseudonym like DADIllustrator, DAD Digital Artist or something along those lines make more sense?

About your lines:

I don't have a crystal ball. If I did, I might be rich. Or maybe unhappy. Or panicking all my life.

Of course there are countless reasons why a image is bought. Of course, I have only picked out a tiny sample from the endless possibilities. Of course, that doesn't mean that your digital painting can't or won't find a buyer.

I myself buy many microstock images in my job. And someone else would buy completely different images than I would.

It is just my personal opinion that a photo that is difficult to sell in terms of content will probably not sell much better through digital alienation. But I make no claim to the correctness of my statement.

 

Sorry if I got a little snippy!  Your advice is solid.  Regarding my contributor name, is there a reason for a pseudonym?  Retaliation?

Dave 

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On 1/5/2021 at 11:11 AM, HodagMedia said:

So tell me, because I don't understand. You take a photo and then paint over it, or you take a photo and use filters and effects to alter it? Or you painted that image? You say it's not auto traced which is good, but I don't understand how you made them?

 

Sure.  I bring a RAW photo into post-processing (I use On1 Photo RAW 2021) and do some development.  I might also add some effects.  I then export the RAW file as a full-sized Jpeg and bring that into a paint program (most often Corel Painter Essentials 7) and do some photo painting (most often using the auto paint functionality where you can choose what kind of painting you would like to emulate, such as oil painting, drawing, illustration, etc. ).  I might also do some blending and other processes.  I then export the result as another Jpeg file to be uploaded.  Depending on the result, I might first pull it back into post-processing for final adjustments and possibly upsizing.

why do I go through all this?  As I said, I am a hobbyist and like to create unique and unusual content that is somewhere between a great picture and a work of art.  Surely, creating vector art from scratch with something like Illustrator would take at least as long?  I also submit many photos as just photos.

Dave

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1 hour ago, DADPhotography said:

Sure.  I bring a RAW photo into post-processing (I use On1 Photo RAW 2021) and do some development.  I might also add some effects.  I then export the RAW file as a full-sized Jpeg and bring that into a paint program (most often Corel Painter Essentials 7) and do some photo painting (most often using the auto paint functionality where you can choose what kind of painting you would like to emulate, such as oil painting, drawing, illustration, etc. ).  I might also do some blending and other processes.  I then export the result as another Jpeg file to be uploaded.  Depending on the result, I might first pull it back into post-processing for final adjustments and possibly upsizing.

why do I go through all this?  As I said, I am a hobbyist and like to create unique and unusual content that is somewhere between a great picture and a work of art.  Surely, creating vector art from scratch with something like Illustrator would take at least as long?  I also submit many photos as just photos.

Dave

Interesting how that works. Kind of paint without numbers version of paint by numbers? 😉

I'm still not clear why they are rejected. Have you tried submitting the original as a reference image? I'm actually surprised that they aren't just rejected for filtered image. Even if that's not true.

Upsizing? I'm not sure how that might distort or affect the images and quality. For SS I'm not sure how much the size matters, especially if you are trying to get them to pass. I mean 6MP is plenty big. For AS there was a comment from "someone who knows" that some buyers ask for nothing smaller than 10MP. I don't know if that applies to SS, because we don't get much information or feedback.

But at least I understand, You are painting over a real image, making something artistically new from the source file.

Nope I'm a snapshot kind of guy, idea, get set, push the button, move on. Get it home, edit and upload. I spend enough time when I end up editing a single image, to be re-painting the whole darn thing.

 

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6 hours ago, DADPhotography said:

Sorry if I got a little snippy!  Your advice is solid.  Regarding my contributor name, is there a reason for a pseudonym?  Retaliation?

Dave 

Dave,

Pseudonym or real name - everyone has to decide for himself/herself.

There are professional photographers who don't want the work they sell on microstock to be associated with their real name because they don't think their microstock images are professional enough, or because they don't match their real style.

Other sellers, on the other hand, use their real names as microstock sellers because they hope that a microstock buyer might search for them on the Internet to hire them for custom work, which in some cases does happen.

This is a decision everyone has to make for themselves - there is no universal statement.

In your case, you say that you have some problems with photos in terms of focus or noise. In this respect, the question arises as to whether ...photography might be the wrong title.

I am not a photographer myself, so I would never include the term photography in my contributor's name. I'm able to make snapshots look a little like photography - nothing more.

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23 hours ago, DADPhotography said:

I assume that some modicum of talent is required in order to be able to learn to draw.  I have trouble with stick people.  If you are referring to learning how to use some kind of illustration software to create something from scratch, I again think that would require some artistic talent, and even if not, I do not see a lot of difference from doing that and with starting with a unique photo.

Dave

You are mistaken.  "Talent" is developed, not innate.  It is possible for anyone to learn to draw reasonably well, you just don't want to do the work. 

I teach drawing.  I get the "but I can't draw" all the time from people, and I tell them, "that's why you take classes."

The skills involved in drawing improve all aspects of creative work.  You learn to observe and analyze light and composition.  You learn attention to detail.  You learn some friggin patience with the process.

Not everyone can be Rembrandt, but everyone can learn to draw.

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1 hour ago, Darla Hallmark said:

You are mistaken.  "Talent" is developed, not innate.  It is possible for anyone to learn to draw reasonably well, you just don't want to do the work. 

I teach drawing.  I get the "but I can't draw" all the time from people, and I tell them, "that's why you take classes."

The skills involved in drawing improve all aspects of creative work.  You learn to observe and analyze light and composition.  You learn attention to detail.  You learn some friggin patience with the process.

Not everyone can be Rembrandt, but everyone can learn to draw.

When I gave drawing lessons to children, I sometimes took all my saved calendars of mouth and foot painters into class. People who could only hold the brush with their mouth or foot. ( https://removos.nl/product/kunst-en-spreukenkalender-2021/ I bought a calendar every year to hang in my class.) 
Also to show that you could achieve a lot with persistence if you wanted something. Even with less talent.

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5 hours ago, Darla Hallmark said:

You are mistaken.  "Talent" is developed, not innate.  It is possible for anyone to learn to draw reasonably well, you just don't want to do the work. 

I teach drawing.  I get the "but I can't draw" all the time from people, and I tell them, "that's why you take classes."

The skills involved in drawing improve all aspects of creative work.  You learn to observe and analyze light and composition.  You learn attention to detail.  You learn some friggin patience with the process.

Not everyone can be Rembrandt, but everyone can learn to draw.

"Hello my name is Pete and I can't draw." 😁

Group of voices:  "Hello Pete"

This would be a Non-Artists Anonymous class and my introduction, on the way to overcoming denial.

I can't even make proportional stick figures, and as a kid, lines, stay within what lines? While I'd agree that someone with practice can get better, some other people are just terribly inept. I'm speaking of myself not being critical of anyone else. I enjoyed pottery and did fairly well with a wheel. I have made metal works, wood projects, repaired bicycles, go carts, and constructed with wood. Give me a pencil and it's like Frankenstein trying to decorate a dainty cake.

I have one piece of original art, pastel chalk, made in 4th grade. After that I was off into photography and anything else except drawing, painting or things that required steady hand and eye skills. I stopped writing in script as a Freshmen in college, because I couldn't read my own notes. The End. 😎

If @DADPhotography can trace as well as he seems to, he's got the talent, eye and with some practice, enough to be a artist and draw on his own.

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18 hours ago, HodagMedia said:

 Give me a pencil and it's like Frankenstein trying to decorate a dainty cake.

Move the pencil with your arm, instead of your fingers. 

If you were in my class, I would give you two exercises to do.  One, I would set up a large sketchpad on an easel, and have you stand at arm's length to draw the model, filling the page. Use a soft charcoal pencil that makes a nice dark mark, so you're not tempted to get closer to the paper to see your lines.

The other would be to have you lay your hand palm down and stick the pencil between your fingers, sticking straight up.  Put the paper on a table and draw like a mechanical plotter.  Keep your wrist and hand straight, and your forearm horizontal, using your elbow and shoulder to move the pencil around.

Try those for a bit, and see how you improve.

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1 hour ago, Darla Hallmark said:

Move the pencil with your arm, instead of your fingers. 

If you were in my class, I would give you two exercises to do.  One, I would set up a large sketchpad on an easel, and have you stand at arm's length to draw the model, filling the page. Use a soft charcoal pencil that makes a nice dark mark, so you're not tempted to get closer to the paper to see your lines.

The other would be to have you lay your hand palm down and stick the pencil between your fingers, sticking straight up.  Put the paper on a table and draw like a mechanical plotter.  Keep your wrist and hand straight, and your forearm horizontal, using your elbow and shoulder to move the pencil around.

Try those for a bit, and see how you improve.

First I'd have to try? (ah there we are, how many failures are caused by giving up before starting?)

Hey, great tips, the arm thing. I'd never have thought of that. Thank You. Obviously I never took a drawing class of any sort.

Yes, I'm so ham handed, I break pencils, which is funny for a musician where touch is important. I'll mention a friend of mine, very well trained violin player. I mean he gets hired to play, not just a hack. (or washed up has been like me) College trained and music degree. When we golf he has the putting touch of Happy Gilmore. I mean, whack, the balls flies... no touch at all. Yet when he's on the violin, his fingers are precise and skilled. I get a laugh out of that.

If I ever take the time again to try anything "artistic", beyond photography, it will be pottery. I really enjoyed that. Hands on art. I'll leave drawing and painting to people who have the patience and learned skills.

I do agree with you that if someone wants to learn, they can. No one was born a natural, even the ones that are so called naturals. You don't build a bridge from the top down. People need to start with the foundations and work their way up. Which of course applies to photography just as much as anything else.

 

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On 1/12/2021 at 4:47 PM, Thijs de Graaf said:

Never too old to learn  😁   (71)

Unless you are me (73) and being stubborn. Yes, honest I think anyone who tries and studies, even from a minimal standpoint can learn to draw. It must be entertaining to create things from ones own mind.

Here's something that might make sense. Musicians, learn scales, they read music, and eventually improvise. The same applies to learning to draw, start with the basic, essential shapes and actions, then copy, yes that's a standard learning tool for artists, copy and learn... then take off and fly from your own hand and eyes and you imagination. But no matter what we do, one needs to crawl, the walk, then run. You don't just start up and take off running or creating at the top.

Going along with the walk and run allusion, we also fall down, get up and start over.

 

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18 minutes ago, HodagMedia said:

Unless you are me (73) and being stubborn. Yes, honest I think anyone who tries and studies, even from a minimal standpoint can learn to draw. It must be entertaining to create things from ones own mind.

Here's something that might make sense. Musicians, learn scales, they read music, and eventually improvise. The same applies to learning to draw, start with the basic, essential shapes and actions, then copy, yes that's a standard learning tool for artists, copy and learn... then take off and fly from your own hand and eyes and you imagination. But no matter what we do, one needs to crawl, the walk, then run. You don't just start up and take off running or creating at the top.

Going along with the walk and run allusion, we also fall down, get up and start over.

A world famous Dutch artist Armin van Buuren  said in a program to another well-known artist that he had never learned to read notes. To which the other said: "Me neither"
Apparently they are so musical that it is not necessary. I can read notes very well. But that's it.

I also noticed in my class that very good young mathematicians got stuck because they had never practiced the basics. This only became apparent when the sums became very complicated. Until then they didn't need it (subtraction)

You have to work harder with less talent. If you don't want that, that's fine too. Just don't shout that you can't.

When you get older you often don't feel like learning something if it is not really necessary. I also have that with the camera with setting exposure and so on. I usually put it on automatic and wait until there is enough sun 😃. Kind of embarrassing.

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2 minutes ago, Thijs de Graaf said:

A world famous Dutch artist Armin van Buuren  said in a program to another well-known artist that he had never learned to read notes. To which the other said: "Me neither"
Apparently they are so musical that it is not necessary. I can read notes very well. But that's it.

I also noticed in my class that very good young mathematicians got stuck because they had never practiced the basics. This only became apparent when the sums became very complicated. Until then they didn't need it (subtraction)

You have to work harder with less talent. If you don't want that, that's fine too. Just don't shout that you can't.

When you get older you often don't feel like learning something if it is not really necessary. I also have that with the camera with setting exposure and so on. I usually put it on automatic and wait until there is enough sun 😃. Kind of embarrassing.

Love it. Yes there are people in music who can't play without sheet music, some are top symphony skilled musicians. There are some famous who can't really write music or read it, but they play like no one else, from their mind. And there are some who do both, at all levels. There aren't really any "naturals", the people who are on top, at any skill, spent long hours, whether it was rudiments and study, or just playing or drawing and painting. (to keep to the kind of topic)

No one starts on the top.

There are supposedly photographer "naturals" but that's more mythology than reality. The eye for subjects and composition is what they have, and that doesn't just come from picking up a camera and pushing the button. Learning was still by trial and error, but it was learning. Also you can't take a good photo, without at least knowing the minimal basis of exposure and depth of field.

We sure are a spoiled bunch now. We can not only see what we'll get in the viewfinder or on a screen, immediately, we can see if we got it. Before SLR cameras, days of twin lens reflex and rangefinders, an artist had to imagine what they would get, then shoot it right, and process film, and hours later maybe a print? Only then would we know if we got the shot.

No complaints. I like things better now. So much for the "good old days" where sometimes it was more torture than necessary. But there was a bit of imagination and inner visualization involved. That's why I admire people who can draw or paint. Not to say photography isn't just as much an art, but much of what I do is documenting real things, and only a little is creative from my imagination. Wow, thank you Photoshop and Illustrator, great tools!

 

 

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